Chamblee54

This post started out as a comment to another post. While assembling links to include, it becomes clear that there is enough material for a stand alone post. When you declare a book to be the “word of G-d”, you tend to view G-d in verbal terms. A side effect is that many get started writing, and don’t know how to stop. ( And lets don’t even consider talking.)
For those who just joined us, lets bring you up to date. There is a blogger named Frank Turk. PG has had issues with him, and is banned from commenting on his work. While the verbal exchanges with Mr. Turk have been thoroughly unpleasant, the fact remains that Mr. Turk told PG about GIMP, an open source image manipulation program. PG is a devoted user of GIMP, and his blog shows the product of GIMP every day.
Frank Turk is the type of Jesus worshiper who enjoys a good argument. He wades in with weapons blazing from both hands, and a nuclear tongue. When you have been in battle with Frank Turk, you will want revenge when it is over. PG suspects that the verbal combat is what motivates Mr. Turk, and the religious opinions are just a handy excuse.
It should be noted at this point that PG is not a Jesus worshiper, and has two beliefs regarding this religion. G-d does not write books. Opinions about Jesus have nothing to do with what happens after you die. When PG observes these religious battles, he gets the sense that these silly children should put their toys up, and learn to get along. It is similar to the impression PG has of the Shia and Sunnis, who murder each other, because of something that happened 1400 years ago.
Getting back to Mr. Turk, he wrote an “open letter” to a man named John Piper. ( John Piper is the father of Abraham Piper, who writes twenty two words, a highly entertaining blog.). This post begat (at least) two more posts. These are from Mike Ratliff and Karen Butler.
It seems that PG is not the only one offended by the meanness of Mr. Turk’s. At some point in the comment thread at Mike Ratliff’s post, he writes: “To everyone wanting to comment on this post. While I did not know it when I posted it, there was obviously some opened and ugly wounds opened up from some previous battle that I had nothing to do with. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from any more of that arguing here. It is pitiful when viewed 3rd party. It looks childish and is fleshly to the max. In any case, I will not post any more comments on this thread not directly related to the subject of this post.” When you have been in battle with Frank Turk, you want revenge later.
This brings us to the second post by Karen Butler. This post started out as a comment to that post, and got out of control. As always, if you tire of the text, you can skip over it and look at the pictures, from The Library of Congress. .
The second chapter from Mrs. Butler is a fine piece of work, part of which PG agrees with, and some of which he does not. Maybe the best way to approach this is by “fisking”.
“I have to speak up one last time for the Retards–those like me, those escaping Charismania, who through a lengthy period of having our minds continually offended so that our hearts might be revealed, are thus a little delayed in our critical thinking skills.” This is also true for those who were raised in a Christian tradition, but decided that they do not agree. It can be a painful process, and you can expect little sympathy or support.
“We are also, unfortunately, usually overfond of rhetoric.” There is a difference between wisdom and a clever phrase. It is good to know the difference.
“We come with a deep distrust of cessationists, and have been trained to think of them as heartless whitewashed Pharisees, who love their doctrines more than the actual people of God. TeamPyro seems to delight in skewering our logical deficiencies but does nothing to erase the caricatures we have already formed about you all. The focus here seems to be all about who is going to score FTW, but with your curt dismissals and rude behavior to those without your theological training and vast reasoning skills, you sometimes seem to have… forgotten the most important thing. It is edification.”
There are several issues here. As for cessationist/charismatic, that is inside baseball. When you see your religion as a fight for victory, you forget that there are going to be losers, and that these losers are just as much G-d’s children as you are. And, when you have scored your rhetorical victory over this loser, you create ill will, both for yourself, and for Jesus. The production of trust and goodwill should be the most important thing, not edification. When you place edification ahead of good will, you are playing the same game as the doctrine happy folks.
“Please do not forget that some may actually be in dangerous mind-control cults, like IHOP.” You might want to remember that many people see IHOP and think of pancakes.
“Forget about who scores the winning goal. Win your reader’s hearts. Teach them what a wonderful and exciting thing it is to adore the Lord Our God with all of their mind.” Amen.
PG read an interview with Christopher Isherwood once. ( There is no link available) Mr. Isherwood said that religion is a matter of people, not of doctrine. It is the person that converts you, not the teachings of the idol. If a Catholic had influenced him in the same manner as the follower of Vedanta, he would have been a Catholic.
By the same token, if a person makes a negative impression on you regarding a religion, then conversion to that religion will be impossible. The people who have made the largest impressions on PG have been uniformly negative. They love to argue and vanquish, and leave you having lost, crying for revenge. If you want to impress someone with the virtues of a religion, the essential first step is to gain that person’s trust and good will. If you speak without good will, then you are speaking in vain.